Verbatim depositions of MKUltra perpetrators discovered for new book
early in interview, first few minutesJohn Lisle uncovered over a dozen previously unused depositions from a 1980s civil lawsuit where MKUltra architects — including Sydney Gottlieb, Robert Lashbrook, and CIA director Richard Helms — were questioned under oath about their actions, providing unprecedented verbatim dialogue between perpetrators and attorneys.
Why this matters: Historians almost never get actual dialogue from classified programs. These depositions were taken as part of the Orlik lawsuit by civil rights attorney Joseph Rauh but never submitted at trial because the case settled out of court. Lisle found them buried in Rauh's personal papers.
Previous MKUltra histories relied on declassified CIA documents, congressional testimony, and victim accounts. The depositions add the perpetrators' own words — Gottlieb admits regret, explains operational logic, and reveals internal decision-making that documents alone couldn't capture.
The depositions came from a lawsuit filed by approximately eight or nine victims of Dr. Ewan Cameron's experiments at Montreal's Allan Memorial Institute. These patients had been subjected to psychic driving, electroshock, and sensory deprivation — all funded through MKUltra. When the CIA's involvement became public during the 1974-75 Church Committee investigations, the victims realized they'd been unwitting subjects of a government program and sued. The case settled out of court for $750,000 split among the plaintiffs, meaning the depositions were never entered into trial evidence. Lisle discovered them in attorney Joseph Rauh's archived papers. Rauh was a legendary civil rights lawyer who had also represented the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. The depositions include Sydney Gottlieb describing what he believed MKUltra accomplished — mostly negative results, he admits, though he claims they learned 'a lot of things you couldn't do, like you couldn't control someone like a marionette.' Gottlieb also expresses something resembling remorse, though Lisle notes this may have been performative for the court. Nonetheless, colleagues who volunteered alongside Gottlieb in India at a leper colony after his retirement reported he seemed to be 'trying to atone for some past sins.'
Lisle describes handling the physical depositions: 'This book was really exciting because I found a lot of new documents about MK Ultra, specifically some depositions... I have the perpetrators, Sydney Gottlieb, the head of MK Ultra, his right-hand man Robert Lashbrook, the head of the CIA Richard Helms. They are questioned by these attorneys and I have the verbatim transcript of them talking about what they were doing in the CIA as part of MK Ultra, why they wanted to do this, how they got away with it.' He adds: 'This is so exciting for a historian because usually in history you never get dialogue because nobody's there to write it down.'
I have the verbatim transcript of them talking about what they were doing in the CIA as part of MK Ultra, why they wanted to do this, how they got away with it.