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Episode
Why Children of Divorce Grow into Broken Adults - Erica Komisar
~177 min
Episode Brief·YouTube

Why Children of Divorce Grow into Broken Adults - Erica Komisar

Chris Williamson
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TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items

TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items
1

Divorce is universally not good for children, but chronic parental conflict is worse. A "good divorce" is better than a "terrible marriage."

2

Children are most vulnerable to divorce during two periods of brain plasticity: 0-3 years (growth) and 9-25 years (pruning, especially 11-14).

3

Modern societal pressures, including the push for women to prioritize careers over early childcare, contribute to children's mental health issues by undermining attachment security and increasing stress.

4

Parents going through divorce need external support (e.g., therapy) to process their own pain and avoid burdening their children, ensuring a child-centric approach to separation.

Protocols

Concrete recipes — what, when, how much, and why

5 items

Child-Centric Divorce Approach

WhatPrioritize the child's developmental needs over parental desires for fairness or personal pain during divorce.
WhenThroughout the divorce process, especially when making custody and living arrangements.
For whomDivorcing parents.
WhyChildren are not possessions; their well-being and stability are paramount. Selfless parental sacrifice leads to better outcomes for children.
CaveatsRequires parents to set aside their own pain and sense of fairness, which can be extremely difficult.

The speaker advocates for a 'child-centric' divorce, where parents consciously set aside their personal pain, anger, and desires for 'fairness' (like 50/50 custody) to prioritize what is developmentally best for their children. This often means one parent, typically the primary attachment figure (often the mother, especially for infants), maintains primary residence and consistent care, while the other parent makes sacrifices regarding overnight stays or immediate access. The rationale is that children need stability and a secure base, particularly during critical developmental periods. While this can feel unfair to the non-primary parent, the long-term emotional health of the child is presented as the ultimate goal, which ultimately benefits both parents by raising well-adjusted children.

Mechanism

Reduces trauma and fosters a sense of security and trust in children, preventing long-term emotional and relational issues.

Personal experience

The speaker notes that in cases she has worked on, children with the best outcomes had fathers who made significant sacrifices, such as not insisting on overnights for very young children.

So the cases where the father has said, I'm going to we we have to divorce because we really hate each other and we can't live together and the baby's only one. Then the fathers who have you know taken a little bit on the chin and said you know what you you be the primary uh parent right now I will come and go I'll have I'll come and spend lots of time with the baby but I won't do overnights until the baby's a little older.

Also said
“Parents have a very hard time when they divorce for good reason because they're in such incredible pain. It is such an incredibly painful thing to see parents go through. They're in such pain they they focus on their own pain and their own desires and their own needs and their own sense of fairness rather than focusing on what's developmentally correct for babies.”— Explains the difficulty parents face in prioritizing children's needs over their own pain.
“But what we do know is that when parents can make sacrifices, when they're not self-oriented, but when they are capable of sacrificing, when they're capable of putting aside their own needs for the benefit of their children and making a divorce more child centric, then children do better.”— Reinforces the positive outcomes of selfless parenting during divorce.

Avoiding 50/50 Custody for Young Children

WhatAvoid 50/50 custody arrangements, especially for children under three, and particularly the '2-3-2' schedule, which involves frequent transitions between homes.
WhenWhen establishing custody arrangements for young children, particularly infants and toddlers.
For whomDivorcing parents of young children.
WhyYoung children need stability and a primary, consistent home base to develop attachment security. Frequent transitions are destabilizing and traumatizing.
CaveatsThis recommendation often conflicts with legal concepts of parental fairness and equality.

The speaker strongly advises against 50/50 custody arrangements, particularly for very young children, and specifically condemns the '2-3-2' schedule (two days with one parent, three with another, etc.). This type of arrangement, she argues, treats children like 'sacks of potatoes' and is highly destabilizing. Children, especially during critical developmental periods, need a primary, stable residence where they can consistently lay their head down on the same pillow. The constant movement between homes prevents the formation of a secure base, leading to increased stress and emotional dysregulation. While this may seem unfair to one parent, the child's need for stability and secure attachment must take precedence over adult notions of equality.

Mechanism

Reduces stress and provides a stable environment, which is crucial for brain development and emotional regulation in early childhood. Frequent transitions increase cortisol and disrupt attachment.

Personal experience

The speaker notes that teenagers and young adults who experienced 2-3-2 schedules often express resentment, describing it as being 'thrown back and forth like a sack of potatoes.'

The other thing I will say is there is a trend in America to do this 232 um you know custody arrangement which is like treating children like they're a sack of potatoes. Children hate it.

Also said
“Why is 232 so bad for children? Because they need stability, particularly during the week when they're in school. They need to feel that they have a primary residence where they can lay their head down on the same pillow and they have some stability.”— Explains the core reason for avoiding 2-3-2: the need for stability.
“The old arrangements interestingly the old arrangements um which now are considered pay where a child lived with a mother during the week and then spent weekends with the father or maybe was with the father Friday through Sunday morning. That works far better because the child isn't in school.”— Suggests an alternative, more stable custody model.

Nesting Arrangement Post-Divorce

WhatFor the first year post-divorce, parents should rotate living in the family home while the children remain in their primary residence, rather than moving the children between homes.
WhenImmediately after divorce, for approximately one year.
DoseApproximately one year.
For whomDivorcing parents with young children.
WhyMinimizes disruption and provides maximum stability for children during a highly traumatic period, allowing them to maintain their familiar environment.
CaveatsRequires significant sacrifice and cooperation from both parents, as they must maintain separate living arrangements and coordinate their time in the family home.

The speaker proposes 'nesting' as the optimal arrangement for the first year after a divorce, particularly for young children. In this model, the children remain in the family home, and the parents take turns living there, while maintaining a separate residence for themselves. This prevents the children from experiencing the constant upheaval of moving between two homes, which is highly destabilizing. By keeping the children in their familiar environment, it mitigates the trauma of divorce and helps preserve their sense of security and routine. This approach demands considerable selflessness and cooperation from the parents, as it requires them to manage their own separate living situations and coordinate their time in the family home.

Mechanism

Reduces the child's sense of loss and destabilization by preserving their physical environment, which is crucial for maintaining a sense of security and continuity during a traumatic transition.

I always say in the first year the best is to do something called nesting where they don't have to move at all I always recommend that for a year no more than a year put them in one location and have the other parent come to visit They stay in their home and the parents come and go.

Parental Emotional Regulation During Divorce

WhatParents must actively manage their own emotional pain and avoid 'leaking' or 'oversharing' their feelings with their children, treating them as therapists or confidantes.
WhenThroughout the divorce process and beyond.
For whomDivorcing parents.
WhyChildren are not equipped to process adult emotions or serve as parental support systems. Burdening them with adult pain is traumatizing and can lead to long-term psychological issues.
CaveatsRequires external support (e.g., therapy) for parents to process their own pain, as it is natural to seek comfort when in distress.

The speaker emphasizes that parents, while experiencing immense pain during divorce, have a responsibility to regulate their emotions and not burden their children with their adult struggles. This means avoiding 'leaking' their pain onto children, treating them as therapists, or oversharing details about the divorce or their personal lives. Children are inherently vulnerable and will internalize parental distress, often leading to feelings of responsibility or anxiety. Parents are encouraged to seek external support, such as therapy, to process their own grief and anger, thereby creating a safe emotional container for their children. This practice is crucial for preventing children from developing their own psychological issues as a result of being exposed to unmanaged parental pain.

Mechanism

Protects children from emotional burden and trauma, allowing them to process the divorce in an age-appropriate way and maintain a sense of security. Prevents children from developing unhealthy coping mechanisms or feeling responsible for parental emotions.

The one of the main reasons they need support is so they don't leak all over their children because it's very common for parents to overshare their pain with their children.

Also said
“Treating their kid, the kid of the separation as the therapist for the separation.”— Describes a common, harmful dynamic where children are used as parental therapists.
“Parents need therapy so they can so they can raise children without burdening those children.”— Highlights therapy as a tool for parents to manage their emotions for their children's benefit.

Sensitive Truth-Telling to Children About Divorce

WhatBe honest with children about the divorce, but deliver truths sensitively, discriminatingly, and without making promises that cannot be kept.
WhenWhen discussing the divorce with children and in subsequent conversations.
For whomDivorcing parents.
WhyChildren have 'BS meters' and will detect lies, leading to a breach of trust. However, raw, unfiltered honesty can be traumatizing. Sensitive truths protect their emotional well-being while maintaining trust.
CaveatsAvoid blaming the other parent, expressing regret about the marriage or children, or making false promises about future family arrangements.

The speaker advises parents to be truthful with their children about the divorce, acknowledging that children are perceptive and will sense dishonesty. However, this honesty must be delivered with sensitivity and discretion. Parents should avoid making promises they cannot keep (e.g., 'we'll always spend holidays together') as this leads to further breaches of trust. Crucially, parents should never express regret about the marriage or imply that the children were a mistake, as this can lead children to believe they were not wanted or are responsible for the breakup. The goal is to convey the reality of the separation while reassuring children of their parents' unwavering love and that the divorce is not their fault.

Mechanism

Maintains trust and security for children, allowing them to process the reality of the divorce without feeling lied to or responsible. Prevents the development of magical thinking where children blame themselves.

So you don't want to lie out and out blatantly lie to them, but you have to be sensitive in your truths, right? You have to be um discriminating in your truths and how you how you describe those truths.

Also said
“You never want to say um I never loved your mother or I never loved your father because or I wish that I had never married that person or been with that person because what's implied there? ... And that downstream from I didn't love them is and we shouldn't have had you.”— Illustrates harmful statements to avoid and their implied meaning to children.
“But to make promises that you can't keep to them, um, is perceived by children as lies and a further breach in trust.”— Explains why false promises are detrimental to trust.

What's new

Personal practice updates, fresh positions, predictions

4 items

Divorce and Child Resilience

0:03:00

Divorce is never costless for children, but chronic parental conflict is more detrimental than a well-managed divorce. The ideal is two loving parents, but if that's not possible, a 'good divorce' is preferable to a 'terrible marriage.'

Why this matters: Challenges the common assumption that children are inherently resilient to divorce, emphasizing the nuanced impact of parental conflict versus a structured separation.

Background

Historically, Judith Wallerstein argued all divorce is terrible. More recent research, however, suggests that while divorce is not good, its negative effects can be mitigated, especially when compared to ongoing, high-conflict marriages.

The speaker clarifies that while divorce is inherently stressful for children, testing their emotional security and sense of permanence, it is not always the worst outcome. The critical factor is the level of conflict. Living with parents who are in chronic, intractable conflict is significantly more damaging to a child's psyche than a divorce, even a difficult one. Therefore, a 'good divorce,' characterized by parents who manage their separation maturely and prioritize their children's well-being, is superior to a 'terrible marriage' filled with constant animosity. This perspective shifts the focus from avoiding divorce at all costs to managing it in the least harmful way possible for the children.

So what I say is a good divorce is better than a terrible marriage.

Also said
“But research that's come out come out more recently says that well no divorce is not good for children. But there are ways to mitigate how bad it is. And it's that in fact chronic conflict intractable conflict for children is much worse.”— Highlights the comparative harm of chronic conflict over divorce itself.
“No, it's not costless. Um it's still going to test children's sense of security. It's going to test their sense of permanence about relationships. These are things that will test it will test their resilience.”— Emphasizes that divorce always carries a cost for children, even if managed well.

Optimal Timing for Divorce

0:20:00

There are developmentally critical periods when divorce is most detrimental: 0-3 years (due to rapid brain growth and attachment formation) and 9-25 years (adolescence, especially 11-14, due to brain pruning and vulnerability). The most stable period for divorce, if unavoidable, is roughly 6-11 years old.

Why this matters: Challenges common myths about divorce timing, such as divorcing when children are very young (they 'won't remember') or when they go to college (they are 'cooked').

Background

The speaker notes that many people believe divorcing when children are infants is better because they won't remember, or waiting until college because they are 'grown.' Both are debunked as harmful myths.

The speaker identifies specific developmental windows where children are particularly vulnerable to the trauma of divorce. The first is from birth to three years, a period of immense brain growth where stability and secure attachment are paramount. Disrupting this phase can lead to long-term emotional regulation issues. The second critical period is adolescence, from roughly 9 to 25 years, with 11-14 being the most challenging. This is a time of significant brain pruning and identity formation, making children highly susceptible to destabilization. The speaker argues that the most 'stable' window for divorce, if it must occur, is between 6 and 11 years old, or potentially after late adolescence (post-23 years old), when individuals are more established. Divorcing when children leave for college is also deemed harmful, as this is a fragile period of individuation where children need a secure base.

Probably the two worst periods to divorce is 0 to 3 and 9 to 25. And what I say, I be a little I'm going to be a little generous and say um the worst period of adolescence to divorce in is about 11 to 14.

Also said
“Oh, another myth. Oh, it's better to wait till they go to college and just when they go to college, we'll divorce. When they go to college, they are it's a transition that is so incredibly fragile and they need to feel that they're tethered to something very secure to go out into the world and individuate.”— Highlights the vulnerability of college-aged children to divorce.
“If you've waited this long don't do it when they're 18. Wait till they're like 23 and they have friends and they have a job and they're more secure.”— Suggests a more appropriate 'later' timing for divorce if it has been delayed.

Societal Desensitization to Infant Fragility

0:53:00

Modern Western society has become desensitized to the inherent fragility of infants, often pushing for early independence and separation from primary caregivers, which is detrimental to their neurological and emotional development.

Why this matters: Contrarian view that challenges the prevailing cultural narrative of infant resilience and early independence.

Background

The speaker notes that in many other cultures, babies are worn on their mothers' bodies and kept close, resulting in lower distress levels and less crying compared to Western babies.

The speaker argues that Western society has lost sight of the profound neurological and emotional fragility of infants. Unlike the common misconception that babies are born resilient or self-sufficient, they are born neurologically fragile and require constant physical and emotional presence from a primary attachment figure to regulate their stress and develop securely. The cultural push for early independence, often driven by societal values that prioritize work and individualism, leads to practices like separating babies from mothers and placing them in institutional daycare, which the speaker views as highly detrimental. This desensitization prevents society from recognizing and meeting the fundamental needs of infants for secure attachment and consistent care.

I think the world has become desensitized, deconditioned, if you will, to the fragility of infants and toddlers, just how fragile they are.

Also said
“She said because in other parts of the world they don't need to cry because their distress levels are kept so low because they're worn on their mother's fronts and on their mother's backs. They're not separated from their mothers.”— Provides cross-cultural comparison to illustrate the impact of caregiving practices.
“But in the Western world, we have this very perverse idea that babies are supposed to be independent, that they're born independent, that they're born self-sufficient, like self-cleaning ovens or something.”— Highlights the 'perverse idea' driving Western infant care.

Feminism's Impact on Motherhood and Family Structure

0:57:00

The second wave of feminism, unlike the first, inadvertently devalued motherhood and caregiving, pushing women to compete with men in the workplace rather than advocating for the value and compensation of traditionally 'feminine' work. This shift contributed to the dissolution of the family and the mental health crisis.

Why this matters: Offers a critical, contrarian perspective on the historical impact of feminism on family dynamics and women's roles.

Background

The speaker distinguishes between the first wave of feminism (pro-maternal) and the second wave, linking the latter to the 'Me movement' of the 1960s and a rise in individualism.

The speaker argues that while the first wave of feminism was 'pro-maternal,' the second wave, influenced by the 'Me movement' and a focus on individualism, inadvertently diminished the perceived value of motherhood and caregiving. Instead of advocating for the recognition and fair compensation of traditionally 'women's work' (like raising children, nursing, teaching), it encouraged women to identify with the 'aggressor' (men in positions of power) and compete in male-dominated fields. This led to a societal devaluation of time spent raising children, pushing women into the workforce immediately after childbirth, often against their natural instincts and the developmental needs of their infants. The speaker contends this historical shift is a significant, often unacknowledged, contributor to the current mental health crisis and the high divorce rate.

But actually the first wave of feminism was very pro- maternity and the me movement. The me movement in the 60s was very uh pro-individualism.

Also said
“And although they did a good thing for society by freeing women from the oppression of men, in a way what they did is they wanted to become men instead of saying we want to be respected and valued for being women and maybe even be paid for being women.”— Explains the 'identification with the aggressor' concept in the context of feminism.
“Caregiving, caring for children, nursing elderly, nursing, teaching, all of these professions, which were quote unquote women's work, are incredibly valuable. One might say in the age of AI, they may be the only ones left.”— Highlights the intrinsic value of caregiving work that was devalued.

Recommendations

Products, supplements, and tools mentioned in the episode

5 items

Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters

Book

The speaker's first book, which discusses the critical importance of a mother's (or primary attachment figure's) physical and emotional presence during the first three years of a child's life.

This book, the speaker's first, explores the foundational role of attachment security in a child's development. It emphasizes that the physical and emotional presence of the primary caregiver, typically the mother, in the first three years is crucial for optimal brain growth and emotional regulation. The book argues against societal pressures that push mothers back into the workforce too soon, highlighting the long-term benefits of prioritizing early maternal presence for the child's mental health and well-being. It was initially perceived as controversial for its stance on maternal presence.

Um, you know, my first book was about the importance of attachment security, the first three years, and a mother's presence.

Find Being

A Parents Guide to Divorce: How to Raise Emotionally Resilient Children While Going Through the Separation and Breakup Process

Book

The speaker's most recent book, focusing on how to navigate divorce in a way that minimizes trauma and fosters resilience in children.

This book provides practical guidance for parents undergoing divorce, aiming to help them make the process as gentle and least traumatic as possible for their children. It addresses controversial topics like 50/50 custody, the importance of prioritizing children's developmental needs over parental desires for fairness, and strategies for communicating with children about the separation. The book's core message is to equip parents with the tools to mitigate the inherent trauma of divorce and support their children's emotional well-being.

Personal experience

The speaker wrote this book out of frustration with the lack of resources available to help patients understand and navigate divorce in a child-centric way.

um my book on divorce which ... my most recent book is controversial in other ways.

Also said
“The way you talk to them, the way you treat each other, the way you care about each other as a divorced couple, the way you work together and collaborate and cooperate and communicate. That's going to determine, you know, that you can put them first and sacrifice your desires and needs for fairness and put them first.”— Highlights the book's focus on parental behavior and sacrifice.
Find A

Attachment

Book

A foundational work by John Bowlby, considered the 'father of attachment theory,' which explores the critical role of attachment in child development.

This seminal work by John Bowlby is recommended as essential reading for anyone with a baby. It details the universal importance of attachment security for a baby's emotional regulation and conditioning, drawing on studies of cultures worldwide. Bowlby's research was instrumental in changing hospital practices, advocating for mothers and babies to stay together rather than separating infants into maternity wards, recognizing the profound impact of early separation on development.

He wrote a big book like this called attachment, which I recommend everyone who has a baby to read.

Find Attachment

Separation

Book

Another significant work by John Bowlby, complementing his book 'Attachment,' which delves into the impact of separation on children.

This book, a companion to 'Attachment,' further explores the psychological effects of separation on children. Bowlby's extensive research across various cultures informed his understanding of how disruptions to secure attachment, such as separation from a primary caregiver, can profoundly impact a child's emotional and psychological well-being. It underscores the fragility of infants and their need for consistent presence.

And another book like this is big like this called separation where he studied cultures all over the world.

Find Separation

Therapy for Divorcing Parents

Service

Seeking professional psychological support for parents going through a divorce.

The speaker strongly recommends therapy for divorcing parents, not necessarily because everyone needs therapy, but because divorce is a significant trauma for all involved. Therapy provides a safe, confidential space for parents to process their intense pain, anger, and grief without burdening their children. This external support is crucial for preventing parents from 'leaking' their emotions onto their children or making impulsive decisions that could have long-term negative consequences for the children's mental health. Unlike friends and family, a therapist offers an objective perspective without personal agendas.

vs alternatives

Distinguishes therapy from relying solely on family and friends, who may have agendas or offer biased perspectives.

I am going to say when you're going through a divorce, you need to get some help. Uh, you need to get you need to get some therapy because you need someplace to go with those feelings where you can deposit them and leave them there once a week, twice a week where you can go to that person, deposit those feelings, process them, process the conflict, mourn with somebody who's got your back and who understands.

Also said
“A therapist is there to help you to process that grief, to help you to process that loss and to get through it and be a safe container for those feelings. So, you need family and friends support as long as they're supportive. And then you also need therapy.”— Clarifies the role of therapy alongside other support systems.
Find Therapy

Notable quotes

Lines worth pulling out — contrarian, specific, or perfectly phrased

6 items
So what I say is a good divorce is better than a terrible marriage.
A concise and impactful statement that encapsulates the speaker's nuanced view on divorce, challenging the idea that staying married is always best.
ADHD is a symptom of overexposure to stress.
A highly contrarian and provocative statement that reframes ADHD not as a condition but as a physiological response to chronic stress, linking it to an overactive amygdala.
There's no genetic precursor for depression, anxiety, and ADHD.
A bold claim that challenges conventional understanding of mental health conditions, emphasizing environmental (stress) over genetic factors for these specific diagnoses.
I call it the most univilized country and the country that pays lip service. So this is my frustration. The country that pays lip service to mental health talks a lot about mental health and children and we care and we love families and it's all a bunch of [ __ ] Because if you really cared about mental health and you really cared about children and you really cared about families, you would have 12 to 18 months of paid leave.
A passionate and critical indictment of US policy regarding parental leave, highlighting the hypocrisy of claiming to care about mental health while failing to support families.
A little bit of guilt is a healthy thing because it means your ego is functioning.
A counter-intuitive statement that reframes guilt as a positive, adaptive signal for self-reflection and behavioral adjustment, rather than something to be avoided.
Quality time is a ruse. Children need both physical presence and emotional. So you can be there physically and to be emotionally checked out. It's possible to be there physically and be depressed or distracted or resentful, but it is not. And I say it is not possible to be there emotionally if you are not there physically.
Directly challenges the popular concept of 'quality time,' arguing it's a justification for absence and that true emotional presence requires physical presence.

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Topics covered

controversial workattachment securitymother's presencedivorce impact on childrenchild resiliencechronic parental conflictgood divorce vs terrible marriagedivorce timingbrain developmentstress and brain architectureamygdala and survival modeadhd as stress symptomyouth mental health crisisgenetic precursors for mental illnesssensitivity genehighly sensitive people (hsps)infant neurological fragilityfourth trimestermarsupial analogy50/50 custody
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