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Episode
Why Violence & Revenge Fantasies Feel Good - James Kimmel Jr.
~109 min
Episode Brief·YouTube

Why Violence & Revenge Fantasies Feel Good - James Kimmel Jr.

Chris Williamson
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TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items

TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items
1

Revenge is a deeply ingrained human behavior, theorized to have evolved as an adaptive strategy to enforce social norms and protect resources, but it has become maladaptive in modern times.

2

Psychological harms like insult, humiliation, and betrayal activate the brain's pain network and subsequently the pleasure and reward circuitry, similar to addiction, creating a craving for revenge.

3

Forgiveness, even just the imagined decision to forgive, deactivates the brain's pain and revenge-craving networks while activating the prefrontal cortex, offering significant psychological and physiological benefits.

4

The 'Miracle Court' app (miraclecourt.com) is a free virtual role-playing tool designed to help individuals process grievances and move towards forgiveness by allowing them to play all roles in a trial within their own mind.

Protocols

Concrete recipes — what, when, how much, and why

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Practicing Forgiveness (Imagined Decision)

WhatConsciously deciding to forgive someone who has wronged you, even if only in your imagination, without needing to communicate with them or offer pardon.
For whomAnyone struggling with grievances, revenge desires, or the lingering pain of past wrongs.
WhyThis practice deactivates the brain's pain network (anterior insula) and revenge-craving circuitry, while activating the prefrontal cortex (executive function). It offers significant brain biological and physiological benefits, including reduced pain, anxiety, depression, and improved sleep.
CaveatsForgiveness is not condoning abuse or tolerating victimization; it is a self-protective act that allows one to move on without being consumed by the past. It is distinct from self-defense or removing oneself from toxic relationships.

The speaker emphasizes that forgiveness is a 'human superpower' often misunderstood as a sign of weakness or solely a religious concept. He clarifies that its benefits are rooted in brain biology, accessible to anyone regardless of spiritual beliefs. By simply imagining the decision to forgive, individuals can experience immediate relief from the pain of grievances and the compulsive nature of revenge cravings. This mental shift allows the prefrontal cortex to regain control, enabling healthier decision-making and a path to healing. The speaker notes that this practice has been shown to lower blood pressure, reduce anxiety and depression, and improve sleep, making it a 'wonder drug' for well-being.

Mechanism

The imagined decision to forgive directly impacts brain activity. It deactivates the anterior insula, which processes pain, thereby reducing the felt pain of the grievance. Simultaneously, it deactivates the nucleus accumbens and dorsal striatum, the pleasure and reward circuitry associated with revenge cravings, thus diminishing the compulsive urge for retaliation. Finally, it activates the prefrontal cortex, enhancing decision-making and self-control, allowing individuals to break free from the addictive cycle of revenge.

But if you just imagine a decision to forgive, what occurs is it deactivates that anterior insula pain network. So suddenly by deciding to forgive, you no longer feel the pain of the grievance which is motivating all of this from the beginning.

Using the 'Miracle Court' App

WhatA free virtual role-playing experience where individuals can put anyone who has wronged them on trial within their own mind, playing all roles (victim, defendant, judge, jury, warden).
DoseAs needed, for processing specific grievances.
For whomAnyone who has been wronged and is struggling with lingering pain, revenge desires, or the inability to move on from past injustices, including victims of serious trauma.
WhyThis tool provides a structured way to process grievances, achieve a sense of being heard, explore different perspectives, and ultimately realize the futility of revenge for true healing, leading towards forgiveness.
CaveatsWhile it can be powerful, it's not a guarantee of healing and may be emotionally intense. It's a tool for internal processing, not external action.

The 'Miracle Court' app is designed to bring the 'courtroom into your head,' where the rumination and desire for revenge already occur. By role-playing as the victim, one can articulate their pain and what happened, fulfilling the need to be heard. As the defendant, one can explore the other person's perspective, potentially gaining insight or simply acknowledging their perceived culpability. As the judge and jury, one can hold the wrongdoer accountable and deliver a sentence. Finally, as the warden administering punishment, the individual experiences the 'pain' of inflicting harm, realizing that revenge often hurts the avenger as much as the target. This entire process culminates in the realization that revenge does not bring true healing, paving the way for the choice of forgiveness, which then brings relief and activates the prefrontal cortex.

And what you're able to do with this is put on trial anyone who's ever wronged you in your life. And but you play all of the roles. You play the victim. You play the defendant testifying in your own defense. You play the judge and jury decide deciding guilt or innocence and handing down a sentence. And then you play the warden administering any punishment you want.

Adopting a Forgiveness Mantra

WhatRegularly repeating the mantra: 'I forgive this world for all things done and for all things left undone, and I am forgiven for all things done and all things left undone.'
For whomIndividuals struggling with a series of grievances or perceived victimization, especially if they find it difficult to forgive a specific person.
WhyThis mantra provides a 'freeing experience' by allowing individuals to forgive the world generally, which can be easier than forgiving a specific person, thereby initiating the brain's forgiveness benefits.

Just saying that type of mantra is a very kind of freeing experience for you where you're just saying I'm forgiving the world. You don't need to forgive the exact person who wronged you who you might have a real lot of emotional difficulty letting off the hook, but you can let the entire world off the hook maybe a lot easier.

Educating Children on Grievance Management

WhatTeaching children from an early age about managing grievances and revenge cravings, similar to education on the dangers of drugs, alcohol, and tobacco.
WhyRevenge desires are hardwired and appear as early as toddlerhood. Early education can equip individuals with strategies to manage these desires and prevent them from escalating into violence.

The speaker advocates for a public health approach to violence prevention, drawing parallels with successful campaigns against smoking and alcohol. He suggests that just as children are taught about the dangers of substance abuse and managing sexual desires, they should also be educated on the 'most dangerous craving' – the desire for revenge stemming from victimization. This education would focus on understanding that pain is inevitable, but there are ways to manage retaliatory desires without resorting to violence. By integrating this into early education, society can proactively address the root causes of violence at a population level, rather than reactively dealing with its consequences.

So we need to start educating um kids at the same early age in the same platforms and then develop on the medical side mental health and other physicians and doctors and healthcare providers need to get in the game and and quit saying after every for instance after every mass shooting people with mental illness aren't at a greater risk for committing mass shootings than other people.

What's new

Personal practice updates, fresh positions, predictions

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Revenge as an Addiction

The speaker posits that revenge operates like an addiction within the brain, activating the same pleasure and reward circuitry (nucleus accumbens and dorsal striatum) as drugs, alcohol, and gambling.

Why this matters: This reframes revenge from a moral failing to a brain biological process, suggesting new avenues for prevention and treatment.

Background

Historically, acts of violence driven by revenge were often attributed to 'evil' or senselessness. The speaker argues this is an outdated and unhelpful perspective.

The speaker explains that psychological harms, such as humiliation, insult, and betrayal, activate the brain's pain network (anterior insula). The brain, disliking pain, then seeks pleasure, which it finds in revenge gratification. This process floods the brain with dopamine, creating a brief 'high' that leaves the individual craving more, much like other addictive substances or behaviors. This craving can override the prefrontal cortex's executive function, leading individuals to pursue revenge despite knowing the negative consequences, which is a core definition of addiction.

It activates in the uh in the same way it's determined on brain scans. Uh so that uh it it generates this s uh instantaneous dopamine flooding of the circuitry which is this you know brief high uh that you get and then that uh high uh sort of disappears leaving you wanting more of the same thing that's that experience of craving that you know people with other addictions experience.

The Maladaptive Nature of Modern Revenge

While revenge likely evolved to enforce social norms for survival, it's now often triggered by trivial, non-survival-level grievances, leading to maladaptive behaviors.

Why this matters: This highlights a disconnect between the evolutionary purpose of revenge and its contemporary manifestations, where psychological slights are registered with the same intensity as existential threats.

Evolutionary psychologists theorize that humans developed the capacity for intense pleasure from harming those who hurt them as a mechanism to ensure compliance with social norms and protect vital resources (like mates or food) necessary for survival and procreation during the Pleistocene Ice Age. However, in modern, resource-rich societies, the brain still registers psychological harms (insults, humiliation, betrayal) with the same intensity as these ancient, survival-level threats. This leads to an 'outsized magnification' of grievances, where non-survival matters trigger powerful retaliatory desires, often with destructive consequences.

Now it's about uh somebody insulting your your your ego or your identity. Uh Largely trivial non-s survival um matters that are being registered inside the brain as you know I I need to react by harming this person in order to to get over it.

Justice vs. Revenge

The term 'justice' is often used to mask or sanctify revenge, particularly in societal and legal contexts, obscuring the true retaliatory motives behind actions.

Why this matters: This challenges the common understanding of justice, suggesting that what is often labeled as justice, especially in punitive systems or international conflicts, is fundamentally revenge.

The speaker argues that the word 'justice' has two contradictory meanings: one signifying fundamental fairness, equity, and the acknowledgment of shared humanity (e.g., social justice movements), and the other meaning punishment, execution, or 'getting even.' Society, particularly in legal systems (e.g., 'criminal justice system') and political rhetoric (e.g., 'bringing terrorists to justice'), frequently employs the latter meaning while presenting it as the former. This linguistic sleight of hand allows for the justification of horrific acts, such as prolonged wars or severe punishments, under a morally superior guise, when the underlying motivation is often a desire for revenge. The speaker cites the US response to 9/11 as a prime example, where 'American justice' was invoked to justify a 'revenge bender' rather than an equitable response.

And what is clear uh I think to all of Americans at that time was uh that George Bush wasn't saying we're going to bring the terrorists to fundamental equity, brotherhood, and fairness. He meant something very different, which is we're going to kill a lot of people and they deserve it and that's just.

Perpetrators as Victims First

Almost all individuals who commit acts of violence or harm others initially perceive themselves as victims, with their actions stemming from a desire to retaliate against perceived injustices.

Why this matters: This offers a profound reinterpretation of violent behavior, moving away from concepts of 'evil' towards understanding the psychological roots of victimization and subsequent retaliation.

The speaker asserts that the concept of 'evil' is an archaic and unhelpful label for understanding horrific human behavior. Instead, brain science reveals that the vast majority of perpetrators of violence, from bullies to those committing murder-suicides, first experience a deep sense of victimization. This perceived mistreatment or injustice triggers the revenge-seeking circuitry, leading to a compulsive desire to harm others to feel better. This perspective suggests that understanding and addressing the initial sense of victimization and the subsequent revenge cravings could be a more effective strategy for violence prevention than simply labeling individuals as evil. The speaker dedicates his book to 'perpetrators who were once victims,' emphasizing this core insight.

Perpetrators were always victims first. And I I lead, you know, my book I sort of I dedicate my book to the to the perpetrators who were once the victims because they all all perpetrators see themselves as having been victimized first. That's why they became a perpetrator.

Social Media as a Vengeance Trading Platform

Social media platforms exacerbate revenge cycles by amplifying grievances and providing tools for retaliation, often moving from digital 'shit-slinging' to real-world consequences.

Why this matters: This connects the brain biology of revenge to contemporary digital culture, highlighting how technology can exploit and amplify innate human tendencies for harm.

The speaker notes that social media platforms are designed to increase user engagement by feeding people grievance-formed material, which hooks them into a cycle of perceived injustice. These platforms not only spread individual grievances but also allow for the formation of groups united by shared grievances, providing a means for collective retaliation. While much of this 'shit-slinging' remains digital, it can escalate to real-world violence, as exemplified by the January 6th Capitol insurrection, which was organized and fueled by grievance-spreading on social media. The speaker stresses that online bullying and 'cancel culture' inflict real psychological pain and victimization, which can lead to tragic outcomes like self-harm or physical violence.

And it also the same platform not only uh creates a way for um all of us to instantly spread our grievances to each other uh but to form groups of people who share the same one grievance and for those groups to then expand. and then gives all of them an opportunity on the same platform to use that platform as a retaliatory measure against the individuals or people that they perceived caused the grievance.

Recommendations

Products, supplements, and tools mentioned in the episode

5 items

The Science of Revenge

Book

The speaker's book, which delves deeply into the brain biology of revenge, its societal implications, and strategies for overcoming it.

The book is The Science of Revenge. Please check it out.

Find The

Miracle Court App

Tool

A free web-based virtual role-playing app designed to help individuals process grievances and move towards forgiveness.

The Miracle Court app is a free web application, accessible via miraclecourt.com, that allows users to engage in a virtual trial of anyone who has wronged them. The user plays all roles: victim, defendant, judge, jury, and warden. This process is intended to provide a sense of being heard, offer new perspectives on the grievance, and ultimately demonstrate that revenge does not lead to true healing, thereby facilitating a path to forgiveness. It's designed to be user-friendly, requiring no downloads or in-app purchases.

Also, that Miracle Court app is at miraclecourt.com. Uh, like I said, that's free. It's a web app, so it's not even on app stores. You just go there. It doesn't, you know, it runs on your phone through a browser, so you don't even have to download anything. And it doesn't have inapp purchases, so it's it's entirely um uh friendly that way.

Find Miracle

Forgiveness Coaching and Training Organizations

Service

Organizations that provide guidance and training on how to practice forgiveness.

vs alternatives

These services are for those who struggle with self-help strategies or need more structured support than what is offered by apps or general advice.

There's even a couple of organizations um around the country that do uh forgiveness coaching and training to teach people how to forgive. Um one's called the center for peace and forgiveness and the other is the path of forgiveness and they're out there and able to help people who struggle with even you know where to begin with how to forgive something really serious.

Find Forgiveness

Therapy/Counseling (CBT, Motivational Interviewing)

Practice

Professional mental health support for individuals struggling with compulsive revenge-seeking or revenge addiction.

If that's the case and you're not able to manage it with self-help strategies like my miracle core um or um other forgiveness strategies, mindfulness, you might need uh and benefit from just having a little bit of support or even more than a little bit from you know a therapist, a counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist, some type of mental health professional who can uh work with you in administering um other things other than forgiveness that might be helpful for addiction. That can include cognitive behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing, maybe even anti-craving medications

Find Therapy/Counseling

GLP-1 Drugs (e.g., Mounjaro)

Supplement

Potential future use of GLP-1 drugs, currently used for weight loss and diabetes, to reduce cravings for revenge.

maybe even anti-craving medications, particularly, you know, one day potentially these GLP1 drugs like Moruro might one day uh be used to reduce cravings for revenge because it seems like they do reduce cravings for alcohol and narcotics while they're reducing your desire for food. They might also work. That's not been studied, but they might even work here.

Find GLP-1

Notable quotes

Lines worth pulling out — contrarian, specific, or perfectly phrased

6 items
Is it fair to say that you decided to study revenge instead of commit a mass murder? >> It's a great way of putting that question. Uh, I would say no. I made that decision long before I decided to study revenge. However, my life might look like that happened. So, it's a fair question.
This opening exchange immediately sets a dramatic and personal tone, hinting at the speaker's deep, lived experience with the subject matter and his unique perspective.
I think what it says is that uh for present modern times is that we need to be keenly aware that that's what's happening and we need to be very cautious with two things. How we treat each other in terms of provocation as you asked me what what what are the types of things that can you know stimulate powerful revenge desires. We need to know that harming another person's identity um shaming them, humiliating them, uh just purely verbal things can produce powerful desires in that person to retaliate either back against you or a proxy.
This highlights the profound impact of psychological harm, even verbal, and its potential to trigger intense revenge desires, underscoring the need for caution in interpersonal interactions.
Evil is is kind of a copout. It there it doesn't exist. You can't find it. You can't see it either in the anywhere in the physical world. You can't see it in the mental world. What we have thought of as evil is this. It's this overwhelming consumptive compulsion to harm other people to gra to make ourselves feel better. It's just this one addiction where the only way to gratify your your your craving is to hurt other people.
This offers a radical redefinition of 'evil,' reframing it as a compulsive, addictive drive for revenge rather than an inherent moral state, which has significant implications for understanding and addressing violence.
America went on a 20-year revenge bender. Uh after 9/11 is what occurred.
This is a provocative and direct statement that recontextualizes a major historical event through the lens of revenge, challenging conventional narratives of justice.
I'm like, we could only cover a small percentage of what this is about. So, the book is The Science of Revenge. Please check it out.
This serves as a strong endorsement for his book, implying that the podcast only scratches the surface of the complex topic.
Everything else is truly inside your head. And I think that's why it's the world's most danger dangerous addiction and deadly. Not only does it produce death as part of its goal, I mean to get this gratification sometimes you're killing people. Uh we have killed people just to get this high. Um but it's also extra dangerous because it's right inside the drug is inside your head. It's closer than the tip of your nose.
This powerful statement emphasizes the insidious and dangerous nature of revenge addiction, highlighting its internal, self-contained quality and its potential for lethal outcomes.

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Topics covered

bullyingrevenge origin storyviolence escalationmoment of insightconsequences of revengeevolutionary psychology of revengeadaptive vs maladaptive revengetriggers for revengebrain biology of revengepain networkpleasure and reward circuitryaddiction model of revengeprefrontal cortex inhibitionpsychological vs physical painidentity harmproxy revengevictimizationrevenge fantasyrevenge vs self-defenserevenge as root of violence
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