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Episode
Eat This "Dessert" Food To Regenerate Your Stem Cells | Dr. William Li
~338 min
Episode Brief·YouTube

Eat This "Dessert" Food To Regenerate Your Stem Cells | Dr. William Li

Mark Hyman
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TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items

TL;DR

The four things you'd lose by not watching

4 items
1

Dark chocolate — specifically high-flavanol cocoa — stimulates stem cells to mobilize from bone marrow into the bloodstream; two cups of hot cocoa daily for one month doubled circulating stem cells in men with heart disease and measurably improved vascular function.

2

The body has five hardwired health defense systems — angiogenesis, stem cells, gut microbiome, DNA repair, and immune surveillance — and specific foods directly activate each; eating to beat disease is not prevention but active treatment through these pathways.

3

Dietary fiber at just five to six grams per serving reduces cancer mortality by 30% in melanoma patients receiving immunotherapy, because gut bacteria convert fiber to butyrate, which suppresses oncogenes and calibrates the immune response that checkpoint inhibitors depend on.

4

50% of food extracts Dr. Li tested in cancer and cardiovascular drug-development systems were as potent as or more potent than the drugs being compared — the same pathways drugs target are activated by plant bioactives at effective concentrations.

Protocols

Concrete recipes — what, when, how much, and why

7 items

High-flavanol cocoa for stem cell mobilization

WhatConsume two cups of high-flavanol hot dark cocoa daily, or eat cocoa nibs as a snack. Choose high-percentage dark chocolate (70%+ cacao) or pure cocoa powder; avoid milk chocolate or white chocolate, which lack the flavanol fraction.
WhenDaily, as a sustained habit; one-month protocol showed measurable stem cell count doubling in clinical studies.
DoseTwo cups hot cocoa per day for a minimum of one month to see stem cell mobilization; cocoa nibs can be used indefinitely as a snack — a small handful provides concentrated flavanols with minimal sugar.
For whomAnyone seeking cardiovascular protection, tissue repair support, or healthy aging; specifically validated in men in their 60s with established heart disease.
WhyCocoa flavanols signal bone marrow to release stem cells into circulation. Mobilized stem cells home to tissue damage sites — heart, liver, skin — and initiate repair. The COSMOS RCT showed high-flavanol cocoa also reduces risk of cardiovascular death.
CaveatsThe benefit comes from the flavanol fraction, not from chocolate as a confection. Commercial chocolate bars contain substantial added sugar and often low cacao content. Cocoa nibs and unsweetened high-cacao powder are the most direct delivery vehicles. Do not add dairy to cocoa — milk proteins bind polyphenols and reduce absorption.

Dr. Li frames this as the best evidence example of food activating the stem cell health defense. Cacao polyphenols are categorized as flavanols (a subclass of flavonoids), which are also present in red wine (at lower levels) and green tea (as catechins). The cacao bean is one of the most concentrated sources. The COSMOS trial enrolled over 21,000 participants and was powered to detect cardiovascular events — so the mortality reduction finding is not a surrogate but a hard endpoint. Mars Candy Company has invested in its own flavanol research program, which Li cites as independent industry validation.

Mechanism

Cocoa flavanols bind to receptors in bone marrow endothelial cells, triggering release of endothelial progenitor cells (EPCs) and other circulating stem cells. These cells express surface markers that home them to sites of endothelial damage, where they integrate into vessel walls and repair ischemic tissue. The process is similar to the body's response to exercise, which also increases circulating EPCs.

We can eat foods like high flavonol cocoa in order to be able to actually get the stem cells to work a little bit better.

Also said
“Cacao actually comes from a plant... dark chocolate has more of it the flavanols the polyphenols are in that bean.”— Establishes the source — the medicinal compound is in the bean itself, concentrated in dark chocolate and cocoa nibs.

Dietary fiber targeting gut microbiome for cancer and immune support

WhatIncrease dietary fiber intake from whole plant foods — legumes, vegetables, fruits, nuts — to 25-50 grams daily. Prioritize whole food sources over fiber supplements to co-deliver the polyphenol prebiotics that bacteria require alongside the fiber substrate.
WhenDaily and ongoing; particularly critical for patients undergoing cancer immunotherapy (checkpoint inhibitors), for whom gut microbiome diversity directly determines drug response.
DoseEvery 5-6 grams of daily fiber above baseline reduces cancer mortality by 30% in immunotherapy patients. American average intake is 8 grams; target is 25-50 grams. The Hadzabe consume 150 grams daily.
For whomEveryone; urgently so for cancer patients receiving immunotherapy and for people who have recently taken antibiotics (which devastate fiber-fermenting bacteria).
WhyHealthy gut bacteria convert fiber to butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids. Butyrate suppresses oncogenic p53 mutations (reducing cancer promotion), maintains gut lining integrity, fuels colonocytes, and calibrates the immune system. In immunotherapy patients, the right microbiome is the prerequisite for drug efficacy.
CaveatsFiber supplements (isolated inulin, psyllium) deliver the substrate but not the polyphenol prebiotic fraction that whole food provides. Both are needed for maximum benefit. Rapid fiber increase can cause gas in people starting from very low intake — increase gradually over two to three weeks.

The MD Anderson study enrolled metastatic melanoma patients all receiving identical checkpoint inhibitor regimens. The only variable that correlated with survival was dietary fiber intake. This is not a confounded observational study — it is a dose-response relationship within a controlled treatment context. Li adds: the polyphenols that accompany fiber in whole plant foods serve as prebiotics for the eight specific bacteria associated with checkpoint inhibitor response, amplifying the effect beyond what fiber alone achieves. He personally eats legumes daily as his core fiber source.

Mechanism

Butyrate produced by fiber-fermenting bacteria acts as an HDAC inhibitor, suppressing the oncogenic isoform of p53 while maintaining the tumor-suppressive wild-type. It also tightens intestinal tight junctions (reducing systemic inflammation), serves as primary fuel for colonocytes, and modulates regulatory T-cell activity in ways that allow checkpoint inhibitors to unmask cancer cells.

For every five to six grams of dietary fiber it decreases mortality from that cancer by 30%.

Also said
“The foods, fruits and vegetables especially the whole foods contain the polyphenols that are the prebiotics that work along with the fiber to feed the actual healthy gut bacteria.”— Why whole food fiber beats supplement fiber — the polyphenol prebiotic fraction is required to feed the specific bacteria that produce butyrate.

Green tea or sage tea daily for catechins and longevity polyphenols

WhatDrink two to three cups of green tea daily. Wild sage tea (available at Mediterranean markets) contains higher catechin levels than conventional green tea and is an effective substitute. Do not add dairy or sugar — both interfere with polyphenol bioavailability.
WhenDaily, as a hydration ritual replacing water or conventional tea where possible.
DoseTwo to three cups daily is the dose associated with cardiovascular and longevity benefits in population studies.
For whomEveryone, particularly those seeking cardiovascular protection or cancer prevention; useful as a replacement for sugary beverages.
WhyGreen tea catechins (including EGCG and related compounds) are among the most studied polyphenols for anti-angiogenic cancer effects, cardiovascular protection, and gut microbiome modulation. They activate multiple health defense systems simultaneously.

Dr. Li describes discovering wild sage tea in Ikaria (a Blue Zone) during research travel — a goat farmer served it and Li found it had higher catechin levels than standard green tea. Catechins are classified as longevity molecules by Li. Green tea has been studied in large population cohorts (Japanese data) showing inverse relationships with cancer incidence and cardiovascular events. The key mechanism distinction from coffee: coffee polyphenols (chlorogenic acid) operate primarily through gut microbiome activation and DNA protection; green tea catechins have direct anti-angiogenic activity against tumor blood vessel formation.

This is one of the longevity molecules right so it's quite interesting.

Also said
“Tea with the catechins and all the polyphenols... the chlorogenic acid in coffee and the catechins in tea have a range of benefits to our body's hardwired health defense system.”— Frames tea and coffee as parallel polyphenol delivery vehicles, each targeting overlapping but distinct defense pathways.

Akkermansia muciniphila supplementation to restore guardian gut bacteria

WhatTake an oral Akkermansia supplement daily, using a product verified to contain live Akkermansia muciniphila. Verify colonization periodically via stool microbiome testing if possible. Additionally eat foods that naturally support Akkermansia growth: polyphenol-rich berries, pomegranate, and cruciferous vegetables.
WhenContinuously, and especially after antibiotic courses, during cancer treatment, or when dealing with autoimmune or inflammatory conditions.
DoseDaily supplementation. Dr. Li's own research shows he was able to triple gut Akkermansia levels; effects on immunotherapy response are cumulative.
For whomCancer patients, autoimmune patients, anyone who has had heavy antibiotic exposure, and healthy people seeking microbiome optimization.
WhyAkkermansia is a key member of the eight-bacteria consortium associated with checkpoint inhibitor response. It is consistently depleted in the sickest patients — those with cancer, autoimmune disease, and heart disease. Low Akkermansia correlates with poor immune calibration.
CaveatsMost probiotics do not survive stomach acid; Li has verified Akkermansia colonization through repeated stool testing in his own research. Buy from a reputable manufacturer that verifies live organism delivery.

Li's personal supplement protocol combines Akkermansia with Lactobacillus reuteri (chewable form, for simultaneous oral and gut microbiome benefit plus oxytocin stimulation) and omega-3 fatty acids and vitamin D. He defines supplements as topping off what you cannot easily get from food — not as replacements but as precision additions where whole food delivery is insufficient. Stool testing is the verification layer; he tracks Akkermansia levels on himself and patients to confirm supplementation is achieving measurable gut colonization.

The Akkermansia you buy will actually take in your gut like I've been able to triple the amount in the gut.

Also said
“I look at Akkermansia on everybody and it's amazing how many people have low Akkermansia and particularly the sickest patients tend to be the ones with autoimmune disease with cancer heart disease.”— Clinical observation linking low Akkermansia to the specific diseases most amenable to microbiome intervention.

Tree nuts daily for protein, fiber, and polyphenol-prebiotic combination

WhatEat a diverse handful of tree nuts daily — rotate through walnuts, almonds, pistachios, macadamias, cashews. Diversity across nut types maximizes polyphenol variety. Eat whole rather than processed (no added sugar, no heavy roasting).
WhenDaily as a snack or meal component.
DoseOne to two handfuls daily. The dose used in nut studies ranges from 28-60 grams per day.
For whomEveryone, particularly those seeking a convenient protein and fiber source that simultaneously supports gut health; especially valuable for older adults with higher protein requirements.
WhyTree nuts deliver protein (critical for healthy aging), dietary fiber (for gut bacteria), and diverse polyphenols that serve as prebiotics. They are shelf-stable and portable — one of the most practical high-impact food categories.

Dr. Li lists tree nuts as among the foods he would take to Mars because they cover three critical categories simultaneously: protein for muscle preservation, fiber for microbiome health, and polyphenols for health defense system activation. He emphasizes diversity — different nut species contain different polyphenol profiles, so eating only one type misses the broader spectrum. The fiber in nuts feeds fiber-fermenting bacteria, which produce butyrate. The polyphenols in nut skins serve as prebiotics for additional bacterial species. Walnuts are particularly studied for omega-3 (ALA) content and brain health associations.

Mechanism

Tree nut polyphenols (primarily ellagitannins in walnuts, flavonoids in almonds, isoflavones in pistachios) are metabolized by gut bacteria into secondary compounds including urolithins, which have anti-inflammatory and mitophagy-activating properties. The fiber fraction feeds butyrate-producing bacteria.

I'd bring tree nuts with me. Tree nuts okay — walnuts, almonds, pistachios, macadamias, cashews... they're great sources of protein but it also gives you dietary fiber which is important for our gut health.

Cruciferous vegetables at one to two cups daily as anti-cancer food foundation

WhatEat one to two cups of cruciferous (Brassica) vegetables daily — Chinese broccoli, bok choy, broccoli, broccolini, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, collards, cabbage. Dr. Li recommends diversifying within the family rather than eating the same variety every day.
WhenDaily. Works well as a stir-fried dinner component or raw in salads.
DoseOne to two cups per day, as Dr. Li eats personally.
For whomEveryone; particularly valuable for cancer prevention and for people seeking anti-inflammatory dietary foundations.
WhyCruciferous vegetables contain sulforaphane, glucosinolates, and other compounds that activate Nrf2 (a master antioxidant gene), support DNA repair, have direct anti-angiogenic activity against tumor blood vessel formation, and feed gut bacteria.
CaveatsLight steaming or stir-frying preserves more bioactives than boiling. Glucosinolates require myrosinase enzyme activation — chew thoroughly or pair with raw mustard seed for maximum conversion to sulforaphane.

Li specifically recommends Chinese broccoli (gai lan) from Asian markets as a more flavorful and nutrient-dense alternative to conventional broccoli. He stir-fries it quickly in a small amount of oil with garlic, oyster sauce, and soy sauce — a preparation that takes under five minutes and converts an otherwise unappealing health food into something genuinely delicious. He frames accessibility of preparation as a clinical requirement: healthy food that tastes like cardboard will not be eaten consistently. Mother Nature placed the same bioactive profile across the entire Brassica genus, so consumer variety preference can be honored without sacrificing the medicinal effect.

Mechanism

Sulforaphane, a hydrolysis product of glucoraphane (the major glucosinolate in broccoli), is a potent activator of Nrf2, which upregulates antioxidant enzymes and phase II detoxification enzymes. It also directly inhibits histone deacetylases, suppressing oncogene expression.

I try to eat a cup or two every day of these food at least... Mother Nature is really smart she actually created the same types of polyphenols and bioactives and put them in all this entire class of vegetables.

Dr. William Li's personal supplement stack: omega-3, vitamin D, Akkermansia, L. reuteri

WhatDaily supplementation with: (1) omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil or algal oil) because achieving therapeutic levels from diet alone requires more fish than most people eat; (2) vitamin D — widely deficient and hard to obtain from food; (3) Akkermansia muciniphila — for microbiome optimization; (4) Lactobacillus reuteri (chewable children's version) — for oral microbiome protection, gut healing, and oxytocin stimulation.
WhenDaily, indefinitely.
DoseLi does not specify doses in the transcript but describes these as filling gaps where whole food alone is inadequate at therapeutic concentrations.
For whomGeneral adult population; particularly important for cancer patients, autoimmune patients, and anyone with limited fish intake or sun exposure.
WhyEach supplement addresses a specific deficiency that whole food cannot reliably cover at effective doses: omega-3s require large amounts of fish; vitamin D requires sun exposure or 10 servings of porcini mushrooms daily; Akkermansia is not present in most fermented foods at sufficient levels; L. reuteri is present in sourdough and aged cheeses but at inconsistent doses.
CaveatsLi defines supplements as topping off, not replacing, whole food. He looks for human clinical evidence before choosing a probiotic strain — not just animal data. L. reuteri chewable is taken for oral delivery because it protects gum health and fights Streptococcus mutans (cavity bacteria) in addition to the gut effects.

The mushroom tip for vitamin D is particularly practical: slicing button mushrooms and exposing them to sunlight on a windowsill for a couple of hours increases their vitamin D content substantially — because mushrooms synthesize ergocalciferol (D2) the same way human skin synthesizes D3. Li demonstrates personal consistency with this protocol in his own cooking: Chinese New Year dinner featured fresh shiitake mushrooms (which are both culinary and medicinal) sauteed in soy sauce and chili paste. Shiitake and maitake are the two culinary-medicinal mushroom overlap species — they contain beta-glucan for gut health and immune activation and can be cooked and eaten like regular food.

I take omega-3 supplements, vitamin D... and I do take some probiotics... when I see that lactobacillus reuteri for example is good for oral microbiome and good for lower gut microbiome and I've done research showing it improves internal healing it actually causes your brain to secrete oxytocin which actually improves your mood, I'm going for some of that.

Also said
“Supplements I define as topping off — topping off whatever you would not normally replace. Supplement and not a replacement.”— Establishes the philosophy: supplements fill specific gaps, not replace the food-first strategy.

What's new

Personal practice updates, fresh positions, predictions

6 items

Cocoa flavanols double circulating stem cells in 30 days

~stem cells segment

Clinical studies with high-flavanol cocoa showed that men in their 60s with heart disease who drank two cups of dark hot cocoa daily for one month doubled the number of stem cells in their bloodstream and had measurably improved circulation — an effect comparable to statin-class drugs but achieved through food.

Why this matters: Stem cell mobilization was previously associated with injected therapies; this is the first widely accessible dietary protocol with documented human evidence showing quantified stem cell increases.

Background

Dr. Li had been researching angiogenesis-based cancer therapies when he began testing food extracts in the same drug-screening systems; cacao emerged as one of the strongest activators of stem cell release from bone marrow.

The mechanism runs through flavanols — polyphenols concentrated in the cacao bean — that signal bone marrow to release stem cells into circulation the way bees emerge from a beehive. Once in the bloodstream, these stem cells home to sites of damage, whether in the heart, liver, or skin, and begin repair. The COSMOS study (a large randomized controlled trial) further showed that regular high-flavanol cocoa consumption reduces the risk of cardiovascular death. The key distinction Dr. Li makes is between the confection (high sugar, low cacao) and the medicinal substrate: pure cocoa nibs or high-percentage dark chocolate retain the flavanols; milk chocolate and white chocolate do not. Mars, Inc. has its own large research program on cocoa flavanols, which Li takes as validation from an unlikely source.

Studies have been done with high flavonol cocoa to show that in men who are in their 60s with heart disease they could actually eat just have two cups of dark chocolate hot cocoa a day for a month and they doubled the amount of stem cells in their bloodstream and their circulation improved measurably.

Also said
“The flavanol in cocoa stimulate stem cells to come out of your bone marrow like bees in a beehive in your bloodstream and they go out and they find wherever needs to be repaired.”— Explains the mobilization mechanism — stem cells are directed to sites of tissue damage by the flavanol signal.
“There was a study called the cosmos study that was completed recently that showed that eating high flavanol cocoa decreases the risk of cardiovascular death.”— Extends the evidence from surrogate marker (stem cell count) to hard clinical endpoint (cardiovascular mortality).

Five grams of dietary fiber reduces cancer mortality by 30% in immunotherapy patients

~gut microbiome / cancer segment

A study out of MD Anderson Cancer Center on metastatic melanoma patients receiving checkpoint inhibitor immunotherapy found that for every five to six additional grams of dietary fiber consumed daily, mortality from the cancer fell by 30% — because gut microbiome diversity determines whether the immune system can mount the response the drug depends on.

Why this matters: 80% of checkpoint inhibitor patients don't respond — and the reason is now understood to be inadequate gut microbiome makeup. Fiber dose is a modifiable, free, immediate intervention that predicts whether an expensive immunotherapy will work.

Background

Checkpoint inhibitors (anti-PD-1, anti-CTLA-4) work by unmasking the immune system to find cancer. They require the immune system to be calibrated by the gut microbiome. Without the right bacteria, the drugs cannot complete their effect.

The Hadzabe tribe in Tanzania averages 150 grams of fiber daily; the average American eats 8 grams. The study shows that even an incremental 5-gram increase — achievable with one serving of legumes or one extra piece of fruit — meaningfully shifts survival odds. Dr. Li's framing: the polyphenols in whole foods are not merely fiber companions but serve as prebiotics for the eight specific bacteria associated with checkpoint inhibitor response, amplifying the effect. He connects this to butyrate production: fiber feeds bacteria, bacteria produce butyrate, butyrate suppresses oncogenic p53 mutations and modulates the inflammatory tone that determines immune cell activity in the tumor microenvironment.

For every five to six grams of dietary fiber it decreases mortality from that cancer by 30%.

Also said
“80% of people don't have the right gut microbiome makeup... we're beginning to realize other bacteria also important there's about eight bacteria been discovered and dietary fiber matters.”— Identifies the specific mechanism — fiber shapes the microbiome composition that drives immunotherapy response.

The body has five hardwired health defense systems food directly activates

~five health defense systems segment

Dr. Li's framework identifies five built-in defense systems — angiogenesis (60,000 miles of blood vessels), stem cells (banked in bone marrow since birth), gut microbiome (39 trillion bacteria), DNA repair machinery, and immune surveillance — all of which are directly modulated by specific dietary compounds. This reframes food from prevention to active treatment.

Why this matters: Medical training focuses entirely on disease diagnosis and drug intervention; this is a systematic map of the upstream mechanisms food interacts with, giving practitioners a target for each food recommendation.

Background

Li's research career began in anti-angiogenic cancer therapy; he tested food extracts in the same drug-development systems and found 50% were as potent as the drugs. That finding redirected his career toward the systematic science of food as medicine.

Angiogenesis defense: food can either starve tumor blood vessel growth (anti-angiogenic) or regenerate circulation in ischemic tissue (pro-angiogenic) — the body needs both in the right context. Stem cell defense: specific polyphenols mobilize bone-marrow stem cells; the bone marrow reservoir is the same one that formed the body in utero and never fully depletes. Gut microbiome defense: the microbiome calibrates immune system, produces short-chain fatty acids (butyrate, acetate, propionate), signals the brain via the vagus nerve, and determines response to immunotherapy. DNA defense: antioxidants and polyphenols help prevent the 10,000 or more daily DNA hits from becoming missed repairs that cause cancer. Immune defense: the immune system surveils for mutated cells daily; good immunity is good health, bad immunity is bad health.

50% of the food extracts that I tested were as or more potent than the drugs we were testing at the time and so to me that was my Eureka moment.

Also said
“Five health defense systems are our birthright. Our health defenses were hardwired in our body when we're still in our mom's womb.”— Establishes that these are not optional upgrades but the body's native operating system — food restores, not builds, them.

Organic produce contains more polyphenols because stressed plants produce more of them

~organic vs conventional segment

Botanists discovered that polyphenols are produced by plants as wound-healing compounds in response to insect nibbling and environmental stress. Pesticide-protected plants experience less stress, so they make fewer polyphenols — meaning organic produce is more medicinally active for the consumer, not just cleaner from a toxin standpoint.

Why this matters: Reframes the organic debate from avoiding pesticides to getting more medicine — a more compelling argument because it quantifies the upside rather than just the risk reduction.

Background

A University of Massachusetts study showed roughly 20% of pesticide applied to apple skin is absorbed into the flesh and cannot be washed off.

The polyphenols that help human health are the same compounds the plant made to protect its own cells from damage. Insects nibbling on leaves trigger polyphenol production as a repair response. When pesticides eliminate those insects, the trigger is gone and polyphenol output drops. Additionally, these same polyphenols serve as prebiotics for gut bacteria — so the polyphenol deficit from conventional farming reduces both the human bioactive dose and the microbiome-feeding effect simultaneously. Practical implication: when getting dried fruit (where skin is consumed), organic is particularly important because drying concentrates the skin's compounds — both the good polyphenols and any absorbed pesticides.

If you grow a plant in its natural state without pesticides it's going to make more polyphenols because it's healing all the time.

Also said
“A study by the University of Massachusetts showed that about 20% of pesticides gets absorbed into the skin of an apple you can't wash that off.”— Adds the toxin-reduction argument on top of the polyphenol-gain argument for organic.

Gut microbiome transplants are now FDA-approved for cancer immunotherapy optimization

~gut microbiome transplant segment

Dr. Li participated in an FDA-approved fecal microbiome transplant for a cancer patient depleted of healthy gut bacteria by antibiotics and steroids who was not responding to checkpoint inhibitor therapy. The transplant — directly injected into the cecum via colonoscopy from a documented super-responder donor — was designed to restore the microbiome required for drug efficacy.

Why this matters: Signals that oncology is beginning to treat the gut microbiome as a prerequisite for cancer treatment efficacy — not an ancillary wellness concern.

Background

Li's clinical observation: the sickest cancer patients — those with autoimmune disease, cancer, or heart disease — consistently show the lowest Akkermansia muciniphila levels on stool testing. Low Akkermansia correlates strongly with poor immunotherapy response.

The transplant procedure targeted the cecum — the baggy bottom of the ascending colon where most of the gut microbiome lives — rather than the rectum, maximizing colonization of the correct anatomical niche. The donor was a documented immunotherapy super-responder, meaning someone whose microbiome was already proven to enable strong immune activation. Li frames the appendix as a Pez dispenser for healthy gut bacteria — its role in seeding the cecum may explain why appendectomy patients have subtly altered microbiome diversity decades later. The short-chain fatty acids produced by healthy bacteria — butyrate, acetate, propionate — are now understood to mediate the immune calibration effect, not just the anti-inflammatory effect previously attributed to gut health.

I took part in a gut microbiome transplant FDA approved for a cancer patient... we got stool from a super responder who really responded well had all the right stuff healthy poop... and we actually were able to put through colonoscopy put the colonoscope back in right down to the cecum.

Also said
“That gut bacteria talks directly to your immune system which is also inside the wall of the gut it lowers inflammation it creates not only butyrate as you mentioned but other short chain fatty acids acetate propionate.”— Connects the transplant rationale to the mechanism — short-chain fatty acids are the active signal bridging gut bacteria to immune function.

Akkermansia muciniphila supplementation can triple gut colonization levels

~supplement protocol segment

Dr. Li, who does stool testing on patients and himself, reports being able to triple Akkermansia levels in the gut using available supplements. He correlates low Akkermansia with cancer, autoimmune disease, and heart disease in his clinical population.

Why this matters: Akkermansia was previously a correlational finding; Li reports from his own research that supplementing with oral Akkermansia achieves clinically meaningful gut colonization — a step beyond dietary correlation data.

Background

Li first discussed Akkermansia publicly at the Milken Institute with Hyman years earlier; it has since become widely discussed in longevity circles. He has been doing personal stool testing for years.

Li's personal protocol includes taking Akkermansia supplements because he has been able to verify through repeated stool testing that they actually colonize the gut — something he cannot take for granted with most probiotics, where survival through stomach acid is uncertain. He notes that conventionally sick patients — those on chemo, antibiotics, or steroids — are most likely to be depleted. The connection to immunotherapy is direct: the eight bacteria associated with checkpoint inhibitor response include Akkermansia as a key member. Li also takes Lactobacillus reuteri in chewable form because it protects both oral and gut microbiome, stimulates oxytocin (improving mood), and has been verified in his own research to support wound healing.

I've been able to triple the amount of Akkermansia in the gut... I do a lot of stool testing and they used to call me Dr Stool and I look at Akkermansia on everybody and it's amazing how many people have low Akkermansia and particularly the sickest patients.

Also said
“The Akkermansia you buy will actually take in your gut like I've been able to triple the amount in the gut.”— Confirms oral Akkermansia supplements achieve actual intestinal colonization based on Li's own stool testing research.

Recommendations

Products, supplements, and tools mentioned in the episode

1 item

Omega-3 (fish oil / DHA + EPA)

Supplement

Li takes omega-3 supplements daily because achieving therapeutic EPA/DHA levels from food alone would require more fish than he consistently eats. He positions it as a precision gap-filler rather than a general supplement.

Li names omega-3s first in his supplement stack, framing it as the clearest example of where whole food cannot reliably deliver effective doses. He connects EPA/DHA to cardiovascular health (his angiogenesis research domain), anti-inflammation, and the resolution pathways that omega-3-derived specialized pro-resolving mediators (SPMs) operate through.

vs alternatives

Chia seeds and flaxseed provide ALA (omega-3 precursor) but the conversion to EPA/DHA in humans is inefficient; direct EPA/DHA from fish oil or algal oil bypasses the conversion step.

Omega-3s at the dose that there is really good for you, you really need to eat a lot of it so I take omega-3 supplements.

Find Omega-3
Disclosed sponsorships3speaker disclosed

Eat to Beat Disease by William Li

Book Sponsored · disclosed

Li's primary text establishing the five health defense systems framework and cataloguing the specific foods that activate each. Hyman describes it as setting the stage for treating food as a clinical intervention rather than prevention.

DisclosureGuest's own book, promoted throughout episode.

Li describes the book as built on the same methodology he used in drug development: testing food extracts in the identical assay systems used to evaluate pharmaceuticals. The book maps over 200 foods to specific defense system pathways. Hyman has read it and cites the comparative efficacy slide (food vs drugs on the same pathway) as a conference-changing moment he witnessed personally.

Eat to beat disease... are bestsellers, are fantastic.

Find Eat

Eat to Beat Your Diet by William Li

Book Sponsored · disclosed

Li's second major book, focused on the intersection of food, metabolism, and body fat — extending the eat-to-beat framework into weight management and metabolic health.

DisclosureGuest's own follow-up book, promoted at close of episode.

Hyman positions it alongside Eat to Beat Disease as the two core texts from Li's work. Li does not discuss the contents of this book extensively in the episode, but his discussion of dietary fiber, polyphenols, and metabolic health throughout the conversation provides the conceptual foundation.

Eat to beat disease, eat to beat your diet are bestsellers, are fantastic.

Find Eat

Function Health (co-founded by Mark Hyman)

Service Sponsored · disclosed

A lab testing service offering a full panel of biomarkers for health optimization, not just disease detection — including optimal ranges rather than just disease-threshold ranges.

DisclosureHyman is a co-founder — explicit commercial relationship.

Hyman's clinical frustration: standard lab panels have not changed in 50 years and measure deviation from disease thresholds rather than deviation from optimal health. Function Health aims to close that gap by offering 100+ biomarkers with optimal-range interpretation. Li's validation point: without measuring health biomarkers, you cannot track whether food interventions are working — n-of-1 research requires measurement.

I created a company called Function Health, co-founded it, and we allow people to get access to all these lab tests that actually measure deviations from health.

Find Function

Notable quotes

Lines worth pulling out — contrarian, specific, or perfectly phrased

6 items
50% of the food extracts that I tested were as or more potent than the drugs we were testing at the time and so to me that was my Eureka moment.
The founding insight of Dr. Li's entire research career and the scientific basis for the episode — not ideology but drug-development data showing food compounds are pharmacologically active at drug-comparable potency.
The flavanol in cocoa stimulate stem cells to come out of your bone marrow like bees in a beehive in your bloodstream and they go out and they find wherever needs to be repaired.
Most vivid mechanistic description in the episode — captures the stem cell mobilization process in a memorable image that conveys both the mechanism and the body's native regenerative intelligence.
For every five to six grams of dietary fiber it decreases mortality from that cancer by 30%.
The most clinically actionable number in the episode — a dose-response relationship from a controlled study population making the fiber-cancer mortality link quantifiable rather than qualitative.
Ultra processed foods, Cheetos, Doritos, junk food — these are not actually food because they don't maintain life and growth, they do the opposite.
Uses the dictionary definition of food to make a categorical argument — ultra-processed products fail the definitional test of food, reframing their consumption as ingesting a non-food rather than just bad food.
Good immunity is good health, bad immunity is bad health. It's pretty simple.
Reduces the complexity of the immune section to a clinical axiom — and sets up the argument that every food choice either builds or erodes the surveillance system that kills cancer cells daily.
There is no drug on the planet that can actually achieve that effect and it was food.
Hyman's summation of a case where food reversed type 2 diabetes, heart failure, kidney failure, fatty liver, and hypertension in a single patient — positions food not as an adjunct to medicine but as a pharmacological intervention that outperforms the drug toolkit.

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Topics covered

angiogenesisstem-cell-mobilizationcocoa-flavanolsdark-chocolatedietary-fibergut-microbiomeimmunotherapy-responseakkermansia-muciniphilabutyratecheckpoint-inhibitorsfive-health-defense-systemspolyphenolscruciferous-vegetablestree-nutsgreen-tea-catechinsomega-3-supplementsultra-processed-foodfood-as-medicinemicrobiome-transplantdna-repair
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One email a week: the sharpest new disagreements and protocols from the library. No spam, unsubscribe anytime.

Educational summary of the cited expert source — not medical advice. Open the source recording linked above and consult a qualified physician before acting on any protocol.